羅密歐．卡士鐵路奇│訪談紀錄 Interview with Romeo Castellucci

訪談者 Interview｜ Mélanie Drouère, 25.01.2024 

《貝芮妮絲》被視為法國詩劇的巔峰之作。這部作品中，哪些元素特別引起了您的興趣？ 
Bérénice is regarded as the greatest French poetic theater text. What, in this text, particularly aroused your interest? 

我與希臘戲劇有種親近、複雜而又難解的關係。我不會說我熱愛希臘戲劇，就像我們不會說自己熱愛重力一樣，它是個必然的存在，僅此而已。然而，眾多偉大西方作家重構希臘悲劇的企圖，卻深深撼動了我，並吸引著我。這些嘗試或許失敗，然而也正因其未竟之志，才成就偉大的藝術創作。思及此，我就會想到拉辛、賀德林、阿爾菲耶里及許多公認的藝術巨擘，他們都曾試圖重構悲劇，卻不得不「臣服」於這項不可能的任務。從這個角度來說，拉辛那眩目的文字始終令我震撼不已，特別是他在作品中融合希臘文化與基督文化的方式。但那是永遠無法調和的交融，因為，若真有來世，那悲劇便不復存在。 

I have a close, complex and ambiguous relationship with Greek theater. I cannot say that I love it, just as one cannot say that one loves the force of gravity: it exists, it is inevitable and that is all. On the other hand, I am troubled by, and thus highly attracted to all attempts at reconstituting Greek tragedy by great Western authors. These attempts can be called failures, certainly, but precisely because they fail in their intent, they are great works of art. My thoughts go to Racine, Hölderlin, Alfieri and many other undisputed artists, of all whom tried to reconstruct tragedy and have somehow had to “surrender” before this impossible undertaking. In this sense, too, Racine’s vertiginous writing has always struck me very deeply, with its way of fusing Greek and Christian culture. This is an entirely impossible fusion, clearly, because if there were an afterlife, there could be no tragedy. 

 

您選擇拉辛《貝芮妮絲》的初衷是否就是這種希臘文化與基督教文化間「無法調和的交融」？
Is this “impossible” fusion of Greek and Christian culture what first aroused your interest when you chose Racine’s Bérénice?  

這種不可能的結合，確實是相當引人入勝的元素之一。然而，更主要的，請容我這麼說，是拉辛作品的「不合時宜」性。矛盾的是，正是他的語言、古典修辭及整體宗教觀在他所屬時代的「不合時宜」，讓拉辛成為真正意義上的「現代」，並得以映照出我們這時代的失能。我們可以與自己的時代保持距離，透過「不合時宜」來跳脫時間以理解當代，唯有如此才能看清什麼才真正屬於這個時代，以及潛藏其中的病兆。唯有離開熟悉的道路，才能看清地平線的形貌。在此意義上，拉辛屬於未來，因為他以語言抗衡語言。一切都是語言，然而，在語言之下，潛藏著黑暗深淵。所有言說，其實都是為了隱匿。 

有時，語言感覺起來像空氣的振動，若是如此，《貝芮妮絲》可說是最雄辯滔滔的文本。因為在其中，一切都被語言塞滿阻塞，卻什麼都沒有發生。然而，悲劇正是自這種窒塞而生。在我看來，《貝芮妮絲》超越法國文化與時間侷限，可說是人類文化的豐碑。在超越時空之下，它最令我震懾的是，其中一切皆靜止、僵固、受阻，然而它的語言形式之美，如同一顆閃耀迷人的水晶。

I would say that this impossible combination is certainly the most the most interesting element. But what I find essential today is – if I may say so – Racine’s untimeliness. Paradoxically, the untimeliness of his language, and of classical rhetoric and theology in general, make him definitively contemporary, a reflection of the dysfunction of our age. We can approach our contemporary time through its untimeliness, remaining at a proper distance from one’s own time. Only in this way can we grasp what truly belongs to our age, its dysfunction. We must depart from the well-travelled road in order to better see its horizon. In this respect, Racine belongs to the future, because he fights language with language: everything is language here, but there is a black abyss hidden beneath that language. Everything that is uttered is said in order to be hidden.  

Sometimes one has the feeling that words are movement of air. Bérénice is, in this respect, the most eloquent text. Because absolutely nothing happens here: everything is blocked by language. But tragedy consists precisely in this blockage. In my opinion, Bérénice is one of the monuments of human culture beyond French culture and temporality. Above and beyond space and time, Bérénice impresses me for this reason: everything remains fixed, paralysed, impeded, but its formal beauty is like a luminous and spellbinding crystal.  

 

在您看來，這股慣性壓抑之力是否反而成為能量的驅動力？
Is this power of inertia, in your opinion, a driver of energy?  

這是一個非常有趣的問題。在我看來，我們在《貝芮妮絲》中所感受到的力量，是一種壓抑的「制動之力」。一切都被阻止或抑制，希臘古文化（以及聖經中聖保羅）對這種特別的力量有個專屬詞彙：katechon，在希臘語中意指「那攔阻之力」。 

我們總隱約感到有個隱形的深淵，離我們很近，就像一道隔開內容與形式、真實與現實的發燙薄幕。一側是高貴有禮的語言、精煉的文字形式，另一側是幽暗深處，潛藏暴力、死亡與情慾。 

對我來說，形式與混沌之間的關係，正是我在拉辛作品中最關注的核心。羅蘭．巴特曾提出「詞語的迷霧」概念，意指語言如同雲霧般包圍著每一個角色，使得他們最終孑然一身。而貝芮妮絲這個角色，正是一座由矛盾、孤獨與遺棄所築成的碑。 

It is interesting to deal with this question. In my opinion, the force we perceive in Bérénice is, first and foremost, the force of a brake. Everything is held back or restrained. The Greeks (and St Paul) had a word to express this particular force: katechon (from the Greek: that which holds back). 

One suspects that there is a hidden abyss, so close, like a feverish veil stretched between the depths and form, between the real and reality. On the one hand, there is the courtly language, an educated form; on the other, in the recesses, there is violence, death and erotic blood. 

It is crucial for me to work on the relationship between form and chaos, which is essential in Racine. Roland Barthes spoke of a “brouillard de mots”, like a cloud surrounding each of the characters, who are always alone in the end. Bérénice, the character, of is a monument to contradiction, solitude and abandonment.  

 

您將「人類孤獨」的詮釋託付給伊莎貝．雨蓓，為什麼會選擇她呢？
You entrusted Isabelle Huppert with impersonating this human solitude. Why did you choose her?  

伊莎貝．雨蓓是被全球認可的劇場藝術的代名詞，也是演員一詞本質的體現。一齣終極之作，就需要像伊莎貝這樣終極的演員來承載。而這份「極致」，同時也是本作文本的起點。這是一齣以伊莎貝．雨蓓為焦點的《貝芮妮絲》，透過她，將呈現戲劇最熾烈的核心。 

Isabelle is a synecdoche of the art of theater, worldwide. She is the actress, by definition. A definitive theater text requires an actress as radical as Isabelle. Radicality is, on the other hand, the text’s starting point. It will be a Bérénice with Isabelle Huppert as the central focus of theater. The idea is therefore to express the hardcore of theater with her. 

 

這不是您首次重新詮釋經典文本。您的作品經常透過物質、聲音、視覺設備及裝置等形式，讓觀眾以不同的方式進入文本。您這次的創作也會如此設計嗎？
This is not the first time that you have revisited repertory texts and, often, when you do, the text is somehow sifted through plastic, sound or visual devices or installations that force one to pass through it differently. Do you think this is how you work with this text?  

我想是的。在這部作品中，將會有「語言」，赤裸的語言。 然而，語言在被言說的方式會有變異，因此它未必是能乘載意義的語言。而正是這種在形式上絕對的控制，讓詞句與聲音反而阻斷溝通、隱匿交流。語言也將經由科技裝置轉譯呈現，在此我所說的是貝芮妮絲身邊角色，尤其是提圖斯與安提歐克斯。

I think so. There will be the word, naked. But the way in itself of giving the word will necessarily be twisted.   It is not the word that carries the meaning. This formal and absolute control, the strategy of words and of voice will prevent communication, they will hide it. The word will also be rendered through technological devices. Here, my thoughts go above all to the other characters surrounding Bérénice, Titus and Antiochus in particular.  

 

角色的結構將如何安排？
How is the composition of the characters organized?  

貝芮妮絲是顆恆星，她是混亂之中靜止的核心，是暴風之眼。所有角色都圍繞著她，由她而生。演出將保留貝芮妮絲的完整台詞，而其他角色則會模糊化，彷彿是吐露虛幻詞句的幽魂。我們甚至可以想像，觀眾所看到的其實是貝芮妮絲的意識，或觀眾將相信自己就是貝芮妮絲本人。這個作品將不會重構歷史場景，如我所說，《貝芮妮絲》本身就是一部晦澀難解的劇場作品。而我們曾見過許多出色的新古典主義版本的《貝芮妮絲》，其中最傑出的是克勞斯．邁克爾．格魯伯 1984 年的作品，在那部作品中，詩作台詞的詮釋方式具有一種像巴利安大理石般的優雅、冷冽。我認為那場演出精彩非凡，然而如今，我認為我們需要以不同的感受性來看待這部作品。畢竟，在拉辛那看似清澈的語言中，卻潛藏暗影，我始終懷疑他語言所呈現的美好光明，因那勢必投下不少陰影，而這一次，我將賦予這些陰影它們應有的重要性。 

Bérénice is the fixed star, she is the motionless and central point of chaos, the origin of the typhoon that surrounds her. All the characters revolve around her, generated by her. There will be the full text of Bérénice, while all the other characters will be blurred, like ghosts emitting phantom words. We will also be able to imagine that we are in Bérénice’s head, or a person who believes they are Bérénice. This will not be a historical reconstruction. As I said, Bérénice, as a work of theater, is an ambiguous object. We have seen fantastic neoclassical versions of it, in particular Klaus Michael Grüber’s masterpiece (1984), in which the word was uttered in its elegance, in its coldness, like Parian marble. I found this performance extraordinary, but today, I think it is important to use a different sensitivity. Then again, there is darkness in Racine's clarity... I have some doubts about the wonderful light of his language. There is also much shadow. And it is to this shadow that I will give all its importance. 

 

這是否意味觀眾將被帶入貝芮妮絲的精神及心理世界？ 
Does this mean that we will be immersed in the mental and psychological universe of Bérénice? 

心理學確實是個關鍵，但必須從超越一切分類與定義的深層精神現象學角度來理解，因為這部作品，絕非所謂的「心理劇場」。我們真正進入的是「真實」之中，進入身體的幽暗處，進入被肌膚遮蔽之處。這是一個由真實、虛構與幻象之軀共同構築的劇作。

Psychology is indeed a key, but in the sense of a deep psychism, one which eludes all categories, because this is not in the least a “psychological theater”. We truly enter into the real, into the darkness of the body, into all that remains hidden by the skin. It will be a theater made of real, fake and phantasmised bodies.  

 

聲音與音樂將如何呈現？ 
How will the sound and music work? 

我將與史考特．吉本斯合作。音樂的部分包含聲音與噪音，都是很重要的元素，因為它傳達了真實，也傳達超越語言言說力量的一切事物。我們始終是音樂的「受害者」，因為音樂能夠突破意識的堅固防線。因此，作品中我們對聲音的處理，將至關重要。 

I will work with Scott Gibbons. Music, including sounds and noises, is fundamental because it is the expression of the real and of everything that eludes the naming power of language. We are always “victims” of music, which can break through the hardened defences of consciousness. Our work on the voices will therefore be crucial. 

©︎Alex Majoli